Just to be picky, what happened to part III?

Seriously, as someone who grew up in Chicago with Metra, I can tell you all of the good and the bad about it. Commuter rail is a much better solution to the problem (as opposed to this light rail garbage that is being foisted upon us). Communter rail can move thousands of people into and out of the city easily. When the Logical Husband worked for MCI's Midwest HQ (in downtown Chicago) he rode the train in and out and it was always PACKED from 6am to 9am and 5pm to 7pm. However you still have to have the expanded roads to go along with the rails. Commuter rail is something that should have been in the states transportation plan 20-30 years ago, when the land for the rails was available and cheap. To try to add it now is going to be a bankbuster.

I have said from day one when I moved here, that the 394/494 ring was poorly planned (based on what I knew in Chicago) because they allowed too much to be built right up against it - thus guaranteeing the use of condemnation/eminent domaine. The transportation problems that we are experiencing today are a direct result of poor planning back by the state back in the 60s and 70s. What is the solution? I don't know for sure, but to for these folks to sit back and demand that "something" be done is insane. They should have made these demands of their fellow DFLers that were running the state 30 years ago! Now their ideas are outdated and too expensive.

So the republican answer is to complain how stupid this idea is to put money into transit and how it is too expensive? sounds like you are taking that right from the pages of the current Democratic playbook, complaints w/o alternatives.

While I agree with TLL that the TCs are way behind on transit planning, while adding commuter rail and light rail now is very very expensive, IMHO it is still cheaper to do it now that not do anything for the next 20-30 years.

And Mitch, of course Chicago and NY have massive automobile congestion, the sizes of the areas they serve are huge. But imagine how bad it would be without a good mass transit system. While the TCs are never going to be as large as those cities, population projections show the metro area growing rapidly, and the state can not afford to sit back and not try to add transit options.

The market *is* an alternative.

And when you say "But imagine how bad [Chi and NYC] would be without a good mass transit system" - that presumes transit was the best, or even a good, answer. Had government not pumped billions into moving people from where they wanted to be to where their jobs wanted to be - in effect, subsidizing lifestyles and corporate locations - the free market would have caused those involved to react accordingly. In NYC's case, it would have accelerated the move of companies to other cities (and adaptations on the part of the companies that *remained* there). It might have caused some of the things that the left wants - affordable housing in the 'burbs, distribution of money-earning potential - to have happened, on their own, without the need for government...

...oh, wait. There's the catch, isn't it?

I agree that too many popliticians are trying to solve a 21st century problem with 19th century technology (trolley cars?)

I have worked from home and commuted to Maple Grove and Santa Clara, CA. Both required some face time, but most of my work is done on a computer, so I was able to be productive while out of the office.

I predict more companies will have to adopt work rules liek these as the boomer retire and there is a shortage of experienced labor (10+ years experience).

I think that prices in the city will continue to climb, just like NYC and SF. The burbs may peak and then decline as demographics shift and people no longer need to "close" to downtown.

If you're going to move out and telecommute, why stop at Blaine, why not live in Brainerd?

Just a quick note, from arguing about mass transit and light rail on the Strib BBS a few years ago.

You can't compare cities like NYC, Chicago and L.A. to the twin cities. Population differences aside, all three of those have one huge limiting factor that we don't. They all butt up against vast amounts of water in at least 1 direction. That, and L.A butts up against mountains opposite the water. That's one big reason why there is so much more vertical building in those cities than there is here. Chicago has precisely 1/2 the ability to expand outward that we do.

Atlanta, Nashville, Dallas, St Louis, Kansas City, and Phoenix are more more valid comparisons geographically speaking.

But that's neither here nor there. We already have light rail, no pushing the camel back out of the tent.

What other options are there other than mass transit, besides telecommuting? Only a small share of workers can afford that luxury...

Bill - when you consider that "Chicago" now covers almost the entire northern third of the state of Illinois...saying they have no where to go just doesn't cut it.

Fulcrum - telecommuting is not a "luxury". It is actually quite affordable - especially if the employer is "on board" with it. All of your office expenses (internet access, phone lines, etc) are tax deductable and even a percentage of your utility charges are deductable. The employer sets up the security and tunnling as part of their IP security and provides the computer and most PBX's are set up for VoIP access now. The "problem" is with the availability of high speed access. If you have high speed internet, working remotely is a breeze - if you're on dial up.....

TLL: how many workers countrywide can do it? How many work jobs that are solely computer based? While that number is rising there are a large number of workers, who by trade, can not telecommute. So what are their options?

Fulcrm - you are doing what you just accused us of doing - complaining about how "stupid the idea is"!!!!

In answer to your question - a vast majority of the desk jobs downtown can easily be done via remote access.

Not at all. You mentioned there were other possibilities outside of mass transit. I just inquired what they were and pointed out that telecommuting, while part of a solution, is not the full solution. I believe that the solution involves multiple modes of mass transit and alternative forms of work (ie telecommuting, shifting work hours, etc).

Mitch argues that without Government intervention in transit planning, the free market would find its own solution to the problem.

Since I can't think of any (at this moment) largish cities in the industrial world which don't have government transit planning of some sort, that leaves cities like Mexico City, Rio, Athens, and Cairo, which ... while not all strictly under the full sway of free market philosophy are probably adequate for this thought exercise since both businesses and people are free for the most part to determine where they can set up shop or live.

Just curious, really.

What I suspect is the case, is that transit planning merely enables a higher population, and a more concentrated one - such as we're seeing in the buildup along the LRT line, and the massive growth of the southwest surburban area following the construction of Hwy 169.

Should have made that "Just curious, really -- how're they doing?"

If I recall other studies correctly, we're actually half decent when it comes to transit times compard nationally. But since we're a regional population magnet we're just going to keep growing like Chicago and New York (obviously not to their scale) so we're going to grow up (vertically) or out (horizontally) and if its the latter even if we keep pouring concrete there'll be consequences. Just how many Ham Lake to Eagan commutes are practical?

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